Sponsor |  usmjam | Sep 28, 2007 9:45am | We have touched on the subject of submission to the authorities in other threads. I'd like to specifically talk about this passage and others that instruct us to obey authorities.
Does Romans 13 deal with civil authorities? When do we as Christians reach the point of civil disobedience, if ever?
If anyone has some information or comments on the issues facing the new Christians at the time this passage was written, then please share as it may have important bearing on how one applies this passage. |
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Sponsor | | Ewtn2000 | Sep 28, 2007 12:58pm | | There are times where moral laws will triumph human laws. |
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|  3DJelly | Sep 28, 2007 4:26pm | I don't think it's even a matter of laws.
The answer seems simple to me. Christians are supposed to spread the gospel to people who don't already know it. That's it. Civil disobedience is allowed for us when spreading the gospel becomes an act of civil disobedience.
So if a country restricts religious freedom, or starts outlawing Bibles, or starts killing people just for their beliefs, I say be prepared to disobey. |
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Sponsor | | lesoldham | Sep 28, 2007 4:34pm | There seems to be an assumption in Romans 13 that authorities that were in place in those times were able to restrain evil. It seems to be speaking of civil authorities as it mentions taxes however the term "ruler" also could mean religious leaders. When I think of civil disobedience I think of Martin Luther King and I know that he struggled with this issue. The writings of Paul stress living in peace as far as that is possible yet every where Paul went he was treated as a trouble maker because his message did not conform to the traditions of the people in those areas.
3) Regarding countries that restrict religious freedom I think of China as I know some people that are there. Christianity is an underground thing there and so any meeting of more than a few people that discusses Christ would be in civil disobedience. Iran, I imagine, is far worse than China. |
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Sponsor | | Ewtn2000 | Sep 30, 2007 12:04pm | The Gospel Matthew records these words of Jesus:
5:38-47 "You have heard that it was said, --An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you. "You have heard that it was said, --You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you salute only your brethren, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?"
Romans:13:1-4
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer."
Below is a small piece of writing from a Father that I admire. It might help to bring some light on this question.
God governs human beings in a unique way because we are created in God's image. God's governing us involves our own intellects and wills. The uniquely human participation in the eternal law is called the natural law. The natural law, othwerwise known as the moral law, is rooted in a set of natural inclinations within us toward specific goods: the natural inclination within us toward wholeness and health, the natural inclination toward having and raising children, and the natural inclination toward knowing the truth about God and living in society. These inclinations naturally lean human nature toward these specific goods, even as our reason leans human nature toward doing good and avoiding evil. Moreover, when, with reason, we reflect upon the three natural inclinations and all their implications, we are led to articulate the primary precepts of the natural moral law, which are identical with the Ten Commandments. In discovering and abiding by this law within ourselves, we participate in God's eternal law. It is by this intelligent self-discovery that God promulgates his eternal law to us....to the natural moral law, there is, of course, the civil law, the law that is established, promulgated, and enforced by the legitimate civil authority for the common good. The civil law is supposed to be a further specification of the natural moral law. Finally, there is the divine law, which is primarily the Holy Spirit (the theological virtues) and secondarily the Scriptures insofar as they dispose us to receiving the Holy Spirit.
The formation of conscience involves both the objective moral order and the subjective moral order. The objective moral order consists of the natural moral law, the civil law (to the extent that the civil law does not contradict the natural moral law), and the divine law. |
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| | 3DJelly | Oct 1, 2007 3:55pm | And then there are countries like this: cswusa.com/Countries/NorthKorea.htm [cswusa.com/Countries/NorthKorea.htm]
Compare Romans 13 to Ephesians 6:10 onwards. There appears to be an apparent contradiction between the two with regards to our position toward the so-called "authorities" (what I suppose we would call "the man" nowadays). And both were authored by Paul! Anyone wanna take a crack at this one? |
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Sponsor | | lesoldham | Oct 1, 2007 4:07pm | Eph 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the
rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness,
against the spiritual {forces} of wickedness in the heavenly {places.}
I find no contradiction here. Ephesians is speaking of rulers in the spiritual realm that I would usually recognize by an individuals struggle with temptations and doubts about God.
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| | 3DJelly | Oct 1, 2007 8:09pm | | "against the world forces of this darkness"? What's a world force? |
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Sponsor | | lesoldham | Oct 2, 2007 12:40pm | Dan 10:12 Then he said to me, "Do not be afraid, Daniel, for from the first day
that you set your heart on understanding {this} and on humbling
yourself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in
response to your words.
Dan 10:13 "But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for
twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came
to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.
The speaker is commonly understood to be an angel as is Michael. The prince of Persia was a "Fallen" angel. |
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Sponsor | | usmjam | Oct 4, 2007 1:27pm | I think the older commentators like Matthew Henry are best in this case in order to realize that this passage is written in light of fact that Christianity was very new and that it was born onto a people who were already considered "factious, seditious, and turbulent, and looked upon as the troublers of the land, their enemies having found such representations needful for the justifying of their barbarous rage against them". Hatred of the Jews has been around since way before the time this passage was written. Because of that and especially because we are God's children, the new Christians were expected to have more strength to tolerate injustice and persecution. More from the Matthew Henry commentary on why the new church had to be extra careful at that particular time:
1. Because of the reproach which the Christian religion lay under in the world, as an enemy to public peace, order, and government, as a sect that turned the world upside down, and the embracers of it as enemies to Caesar, and the more because the leaders were Galileans-an old slander. Jerusalem was represented as a rebellious city, hurtful to kings and provinces, Ezra 4:15, 16. Our Lord Jesus was so reproached, though he told them his kingdom was not of this world: no marvel, then, if his followers have been loaded in all ages with the like calumnies, called factious, seditious, and turbulent, and looked upon as the troublers of the land, their enemies having found such representations needful for the justifying of their barbarous rage against them. The apostle therefore, for the obviating of this reproach and the clearing of Christianity from it, shows that obedience to civil magistrates is one of the laws of Christ, whose religion helps to make people good subjects; and it was very unjust to charge upon Christianity that faction and rebellion to which its principles and rules are so directly contrary.
2. Because of the temptation which the Christians lay under to be otherwise affected to civil magistrates, some of them being originally Jews, and so leavened with a principle that it was unmeet for any of the seed of Abraham to be subject to one of another nation-their king must be of their brethren, Deu. 17:15. Besides, Paul had taught them that they were not under the law, they were made free by Christ. Lest this liberty should be turned into licentiousness, and misconstrued to countenance faction and rebellion, the apostle enjoins obedience to civil government, which was the more necessary to be pressed now because the magistrates were heathens and unbelievers, which yet did not destroy their civil power and authority. Besides, the civil powers were persecuting powers; the body of the law was against them.
II. The reasons to enforce this duty. Why must we be subject?
1. For wrath's sake. Because of the danger we run ourselves into by resistance. Magistrates bear the sword, and to oppose them is to hazard all that is dear to us in this world; for it is to no purpose to contend with him that bears the sword. The Christians were then in those persecuting times obnoxious to the sword of the magistrate for their religion, and they needed not make themselves more obnoxious by their rebellion. The least show of resistance or sedition in a Christian would soon be aggravated and improved, and would be very prejudicial to the whole society; and therefore they had more need than others to be exact in their subjection, that those who had so much occasion against them in the matter of their God might have no other occasion. To this head must that argument be referred (v. 2), Those that resist shall receive to themselves damnation: krima leµpsontai, they shall be called to an account for it. God will reckon with them for it, because the resistance reflects upon him. The magistrates will reckon with them for it. They will come under the lash of the law, and will find the higher powers too high to be trampled upon, all civil governments being justly strict and severe against treason and rebellion; so it follows (v. 3), Rulers are a terror. This is a good argument, but it is low for a Christian.
This passage does speak to most church vs government situations, but was particularly framed for that specific period of time. It also differentiates civil law vs freedom from the old covenant laws, that freedom which is our freedom in Christ.
There were many other instances of civil disobedience, from Old Testament to Paul's own dealings with Rome. Sometimes he allowed himself jailed, other times he fled and hid. The earthly parents of Jesus also alternated between compliance to and flight from the law. |
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