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| Christian Authority; whats the source? | | |
Sponsor |  usmjam | May 21, 2004 9:40am | Hi Inertial-Mass: I wanna take you up on your offer posted in the Belief forum to explain Catholicism. This also relates to your post in the spirituality forum #11 where you said: You might often hear a Protestant say "the bible says" or "the bible teaches" because the typical Protestant view is that religious authority comes from the bible. The Catholic view, however, is that the New Testament is a product of the Spiritual Tradition, instituted by God in the Apostles and still alive today in the Church. The earliest Christians were really Christians even without the bible as we know it because of this Tradition. Further, with the Tradition came for the first time in history the full and right interpretation of the Old Testament.
"The New Testament is a product of the Spiritual Tradition"? What came first, which influences which? Are you saying that the Bible is more of a guide for men, apostolic successors, whereby to come up with Traditions? Is not the Bible the Word of God? Is the Bible inerrant or is the Bishop of Rome infallible? This Jesus guy, man, He qouted scripture BIG time, while denouncing tradition. His entire defense when Satan tempted Him in the desert was to rely on the Word. He claimed to have come not to destroy the Word received up to His day, but to fulfill it,(Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil). I guess He thought He was THE Word, and that the Word had become flesh in Him. So then, what or who is the authority? |
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|  Inertial-Mass | May 21, 2004 10:41am | The Church holds that the divinely inspired scripture, that is, the Bible, is inerrant. In order to see what the Church means by "inerrant", one might start by checking out some of the material in the Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.org/cathen [newadvent.org/cathen] and, in particular, newadvent.org/cathen/02543a.htm [newadvent.org/cathen/02543a.htm]). Here is an excerpt from the article on "The Bible":
It was declared by the Vatican Council (Sess. III, c. ii) that the sacred and canonical character of Scripture would not be sufficiently explained by saying that the books were composed by human diligence and then approved by the Church, or that they contained revelation without error. They are sacred and canonical "because, having been written by inspiration of the Holy Ghost, that have God for their author, and as such have been handed down to the Church". The inerrancy of the Bible follows as a consequence of this Divine authorship. Wherever the sacred writer makes a statement as his own, that statement is the word of God and infallibly true, whatever be the subject-matter of the statement.
It will be seen, therefore, that though the inspiration of any writer and the sacred character of his work be antecedent to its recognition by the Church yet we are dependent upon the Church for our knowledge of the existence of this inspiration. She is the appointed witness and guardian of revelation. From her alone we know what books belong to the Bible.
You might also check out the article (newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm [newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm]) on infallibility. The short of it is that the Apostolic Tradition is older than the New Testament, that the New Testament emerged from within this Tradition, that the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is the cause of scriptural inerrancy, that the Pope, as the principle of unity in the Church, is infallible only when he acts in his official capacity and clearly indicates that he is acting infallibly, and that the Church more generally is infallible when she produces documents from an ecumenical council.
The question of authority goes right to the heart of apologetics. Because scripture can be so variously interpreted---even on crucial points---it makes no sense to say that the Bible is an authority. The right authority is that by which we may know both what comprises the Bible and what its true interpretation is.
If Jesus be of the physical universe its Creator, the Reason Who gives order to things and physical expression to the principle of Being Itself; that is, if Jesus be the Word of God, then His authority comes from Himself as God. The point is that He brought the Church into being so that she would exist until the end of time as a reflection of right order and healing in the midst of a chaotic and broken world. Her authority comes because He made her to have it. She has identified which writings are scripture and what they mean. She does other things authoritatively besides.
This is the Catholic view, as I understand it. I realize that almost every non-Catholic will have serious disagreement with what I have above claimed for and of the Church. |
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Sponsor | | usmjam | May 21, 2004 11:47am | Wow, twas quick! I guess my confusion is in the idea of apostolic tradition predating the New Testament. Surely not the Gospel found in the first four books? While Acts thru Revelation occur after the four Gospel Books, it was not tradition that inspired those later books. Those books are instead showing us how to live the Christian life, to carry out the great commission. We are to follow the example of the early Christians who strove to follow Christ and Christ alone. I agree that methods were inspired and recorded in those later books of the NT and are now tradition. But thats a by-product, not the source of the inspired New Testament. Such traditions as organizing a body of beleivers, the qualifications of a deacon, bishop, etc all fall back to a central truth; Salvation via the Blood sacrifice of the Lamb. The New Testament is replete with warnings against anything that adds to the idea of salvation only by faith in His sacrifice for those who accept Him as Lord. Yet traditions sprung up that effectively added to the already complete work of redemption. Traditions that revive Old Testament Mosaic Law. Traditions that in effect put the burden back on man for salvation, while Jesus has already done it for the beleiver.
Part of biblical tradition is to have teachers & pastors/ministers. But the reason for them is so that everyone may grow in the faith and commune with the Savior on a personal basis. We must ALL strive to learn the Word of God and understand our faith. The beauty is that personal application talks to all who read their bible in humility & faith. Same words, same meaning, yet different personal application to individual lives. Saying that one will rely on "the right authority" and not questioning the extrabiblical traditions places one's faith in the wisdom of men, whether claiming to speak "Ex Cathedra" or not.
Anyway, gonna run for now (besides at the mouth!) Thanks for the input and I look forward to further. Don't take it as a putdown or anything, I admire anyone willing to discuss more than whats happening on survival island or whatever. Remain well, and Praise our Lord this Sunday while in Mass, Inertial. :-) |
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| | Inertial-Mass | May 21, 2004 12:06pm | 3: As I wrote elsewhere in the spirituality group, Jesus gathered 12 friends and inculcated the Tradition in them. They are the Apostles, and the Tradition from God is the divine Tradition of the Apostles. So, yes, it predates even the gospels. The Tradition absolutely informs and gives rise to the whole of the New Testament; the inspiration, of course, is of the Holy Spirit. The Apostolic Tradition must be distinguished from mere traditions of man. Each is present in the Church, but the latter must not contradict the former.
I do not argue for the absence of questioning, even in respect of right authority. The Church teaches that one is obligated to consider what she teaches and her reasons for doing so. That is, one should pay careful attention to right authority. Ultimately, though, she teaches that one ought to follow one's conscience, even if it lead him to leave the Church. It is better to sin venially in disobeying the Church or in disbelieving the truth that she solemnly proclaims than to sin mortally by violating one's own conscience and becoming a hypocrite. |
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Sponsor | | usmjam | May 24, 2004 8:05am | | Good morning I-mass, how was your weekend? Did you attend Sunday morning mass or a Saturday vigil mass? Anyway, our main difference goes way back to defining church and the scriptures that supposedly established what grew into Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant "churches". I'd like to indeed go over someday soon what "the Rock" is that Jesus founded the church on. What are the keys to the kingdom that Peter and the apostles were given and just what they were to hold men bound to or not. For now, please look at what Jesus preached the most against and who He publicly rebuked the strongest. Also, I'd like to ask why seven churches are mentioned at the beginning of Revelation and why no church is mentioned after that. What have you found on Constantine and the early Rome bishops? For now I gotta run, pesky work business has a habit of getting in the way, ya know. Take care and stay well. BTW, it looks like this will overlap with belief.group.stumbleupon.com/forum/378/ [belief.group.stumbleupon.com/forum/378/] but boy oh boy you and homebase had a great discourse going in the old forums. I'm looking forward to you two discussing again! |
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| | Inertial-Mass | May 24, 2004 12:48pm | 5: My weekend was well enough. I did attend mass on Sunday morning. I don't pretend to understand the numeric symbols in Revelation, but that would be interesting to research. I haven't been lately looking for anything on Constantine and the early popes.
One could argue that Jesus reserves the harshest words for hypocrites. That was part of my point. |
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Sponsor | | usmjam | May 24, 2004 1:33pm | Hi, glad you are well. Quick notes on our conversation; Book of Revelation shows (my humble opinion of course) that the body of believers is not any one established church. Seven examples are given that will apply to all true Christian Churches at one point or another. At the end of time, it is faith that matters, not an organized group. Although there will always be a remnant of true believers, the only organized church of note at that time will be anti-christian; beast of 666 infamey. Only the return of Christ for the judgement will turn that around, thats how bad it will get.
Constantine established his version of Christianity as the official religion of Rome and thereby the world under them. Big turning point away from God and towards organized religion that sought to include everyone, by brutal and deadly force or WORSE by compromising doctrine and melding ritual with pagan practices and holidays. Hope to chat more specifically in next days, Lord willing. For now thats a preview of where I approach the subject. G'nite and take care. |
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Sponsor | | Ewtn2000 | Apr 11, 2007 5:36pm | | # 5 After all this time, I have to say that the Keys where not given to all of the Apostles, just to Peter..... And yes, there is only one Church of Jesus, some people are in it even when they don't know they are. |
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| Christian Authority; whats the source? | | |
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